I spoke to Joan of Arc frontman Tim Kinsella for 45 minutes on a Friday afternoon. The conversation went long only because Kinsella answered several call waiting beeps, including one from his mother informing him about a certain nightclub fire in Rhode Island the previous evening.

Joan of Arc's new album, So Much Staying Alive and Lovelessness, is out now on Jade Tree, and the band are now in the midst of a national tour. The band also has another album of new material set to hit shelves in late May, In Rape, Fantasy, and Terror Sex We Trust, on Perishable Records.

The press release for your forthcoming record says, "If So Much Staying Alive and Lovelessness is Joan of Arc's OK Computer, In Rape Fantasy and Terror Sex We Trust is its Kid A."

That's embarrassing. Like people only understand two records existing unless... 'what is that like? Oh, Radiohead did that, they must have done that because Radiohead did that'. That sucks, Radiohead's the worst. It's just the same stupid U2 cake with a different frosting. Everyone talks about how challenging it is, but functionally and structurally it's the same dumb alternative shit, with just a different layer on the surface -- 'Oooh, there's a beep, it's a signifier of something bold', but it's just alternative rock. Who cares?

So the new album is from the same batch of songs as the current album?

It was all recorded in the same studio with the same people at the same time.

Was it a conscious choice not to release it all at once?

No. I thought I had made this giant record, and then sent all the songs to Jade Tree, who said 'OK, we like half of them'. So it just sort of worked out, which ones they said they'd want to do. It was a very long process, besides the actual recording; the administrative stuff was very exhausting, everything was sort of an uphill battle, logistically, so when they said, 'We want to put out half the record,' I couldn't argue anymore. I said, 'Great, give me half the money, I don't want to think about it anymore.' Only now that I've started catching up on my rest a little bit and am able to function again do I realize the striking difference between the two. But I think the difference says more about what Jade Tree wants of me, more than it does about my conscious effort to make these two contrasting albums.

So Jade Tree made a choice about what songs they liked, and the result is So Much Staying Alive...?

They've always been very fair. They'll make their comments, but they've put out the records as I've wanted them to be without ever speaking up in protest. They still don't like that last EP [How Can Anything So Little Be Any More], and are shy about criticizing me, but I still know I'm very lucky. People make records like that every day, but usually they're not on record labels that distribute them as widely. I do feel lucky to be able to have made such strange music and have them agree to treat it like it has a chance at getting on Dawson's Creek or something.

What is a common misconception you think your fans or others have about you?

I think it's a misconception to think that I have fans... I guess I'd be the last one to know. People tend to have this academic perception of me that I don't really understand. But then, on the other hand, a lot of the time, maybe I am a pretentious jerk, because I feel like I can't relate to people a lot of the time, because people just start talking about TV shows, and I don't know anything about TV shows, and so I feel a little bit culturally illiterate in that way. Even people I don't suspect, nice interesting people, will start talking about a TV show, and it's like 'You, too? I had no idea'. So maybe, everyone else is singing about TV shows and I'm not -- maybe that comes off as... I don't think my lyrics are so strange, I guess that's a misconception.

Your approach to lyric writing is definitely uncommon. Some have even called it stream of consciousness.

Yeah, I don't see that. I mean, it's pliable and it's musical, it's not like a conversation. Our publicist just gave me a stack of reviews for the new Joan of Arc record; one was talking about my weird stream of consciousness lyrics. Sure, there are moments that are more abstract, but it's just funny that people assume everything I do is going to be so strange. It's kind of a nice position to be in, it's given me maybe more credit than I deserve.

You hinted that your interests don't lie in popular culture or the media...

I wouldn't say I'm not interested in popular culture. Yesterday, I was at my mom's house for the afternoon, and I loved being able to watch CNN and that shit for a little bit, because it's just so weird to me. Through the whole broadcast, in the corner it said 'terror alert: orange'...it's fascinating to me, the whole brainwashing machine. I'm sort of obsessive with the news, too. I listen to the news every hour and read a bunch of different news sources every day, so I can't say I'm not interested in that.

But the entertainment aspect of the media...

I saw that movie Adaptation, and every one was freaking out about it -- it's better than anything you could've seen in the mall that day, but why do you have to go to the mall?

As the other half of an earlier question, what's a common (or uncommon) misconception you have about your fans?

I don't know who likes it. Maybe it's just easier to keep working if I don't think about it. I'm as vain and insecure as anyone else, so it creeps into my mind sometimes, but I'd rather not think about it. When Owls toured Europe about a year and a half ago, our van broke down, and we missed a whole week of shows. By the time we got the van fixed, we were in Torino, Italy -- supposed to be playing in Glasgow that night, so it was a 36 hour drive to catch up to where we were supposed to be. We came home not able to pay for our plane tickets, so when we got home we had a $3500 debt.

Then the Friend/Enemy tour was a disaster -- played to no one everywhere, and ended up losing $2000 in a two-week tour. So I guess, in my mind, I hate to think it's just a money thing, but the truth is I'm so broke all the time, there's no way to justify being a 28-year-old dude who still lives like this, you know? I live in a dirty warehouse with six other people -- I'm very happy here, but I don't know each morning where I'm going to find the money to buy a sandwich. So it's sort of hard for me to believe there might be fans of what I do somewhere, and I still can't buy a sandwich.

Knowing a little more about how the record industry works and how artists actually get paid very little from record sales, that's not terribly surprising at all.

It just seems like such a childish thing, the whole Rock Popularity Contest. It has to be about more than that for me, or why would I do it? I don't think I could live with myself if I didn't have certain illusions of it being about more than just how many people like it. I need to keep myself more in the middle of the actual process. If I start thinking about any of the commercial ends of it, I would be very sad about not being able to afford a sandwich at 28 years old.

It's definitely not a job that supports you in that way.

Yeah, but it takes up far more than 40 hours a week, to be devoted enough to it to get to where I want it to be; to express what I want it to takes a lot more than 40 hours a week. So it's not like I can work full time and do this. I'm a bartender, so I'm very lucky. People are very generous when they're drunk. We have this whole scam where we give people ten seconds of work handing them a beer and then they give me a dollar.

Do you think it could have negative effects if it weren't that way? I mean, do you think it's positive in a sense that you aren't receiving income from your art?

Yeah. It's the most common thing in the world with someone: you achieve the slightest bit of success and say, 'Oh, people liked that? What did I do there, maybe I'll do that again, people seemed to like it.' I know there must be songs on some of the records I could point to, if I had to sit and listen to them, I would be able to say, 'Oh this is some lame half-assed attempt to give the people what they want'. I think that's what people do. How many really good actors become stars and then continue to make good movies? Very few, you know? I'm trusting that our unsustainable lifestyles will just burn out the whole planet, and I won't have to worry about what I do when I grow up. Because maybe I won't grow up, because no one will.

What are you currently listening to?

I've been listening to the Deep Red soundtrack, that Dario Argento movie by that Italian prog band Goblin from the late '70s. We have this room in our house called the laboratory. It's like a workshop place, and I was sitting in there while my friend was listening to Van Morrison's Astral Weeks and we were getting excited. I've actually just been in the middle of writing my ten favorite records ever list, I'm writing 100 words on each thing for some magazine and now I'm just thinking of those records... you know what I just listened to that's not on that list is Chris Connelly's solo record, Whiplash Boychild, I hadn't heard for ever.

What are some of the records on this ten favorites list?

I have Bauhaus The Sky's Gone Out, Van Morrison's Astral Weeks, Talk Talk's Laughing Stock, Scott Walker's Scott 2...

Do you listen to vinyl more than cds?

It depends. When I'm home I do, because I like the ritual of playing a record. I like that it's not portable, and it demands that I remain where it is, as opposed to... I work in this bar, and I listen to a lot of cds, so when I'm working I'm always playing cds and I walk around with my headphones on.

You're allowed to bartend with your headphones on?

No, I meant when I walk around -- that'd be pretty cool if I could though. I did try walking down the street the other day very stoned with Hella in my headphones, and after about two blocks I had this total panic attack and I was like, 'Oh my god, people are going to jump on me from everywhere'...it's insane. It's very warm and nice here the last couple of days; I think I got a little cocky with what I was capable of.

Ben Gill
March 17, 2003